How Do I Position Myself to Influence Senior Leadership?

MURIEL WILKINS: I’m MURIEL WILKINS, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I’m a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing. Today’s guest is someone we’ll call Braeden to protect his confidentiality. Like many leaders, he’s landed in his current position through a bit of a winding path, starting in the tech sector, then going out on his own and then taking another turn into his current strategic leadership role.

BRAEDEN: I ended up doing some work on contract for a client, and we went from having a very transactional relationship to one where I was invited to actually be working with their owners, executives, leaders, all the way down at more of a strategic level, trying to understand how things that I could deploy might help them strategically, competitively. My role has continued to expand into that strategic level, and my job title changed as a result of that. And my day-to-day now is a weird mix of things that take you all the way from that 30,000-foot strategic level advising, counseling, coaching, our ownership, executive level, senior leadership on strategic decisions, managing what we would call our strategic plan, which is a living and breathing document, a set of commitments that we’ve made and a system whereby we can track our progress toward those commitments. But also I’ve carried all of that IT stuff with me.

MURIEL WILKINS: In making the leap from solopreneur back into the corporate world, Braeden was motivated by a few things.

BRAEDEN: I really felt a sense of ownership over what we had built. We’ve done some things that no other organization in our field is doing, and that’s really exciting. I do feel like that’s my baby, some of these systems that we’re running. And I like to problem-solve and I saw that this was an opportunity to continue solving problems in perpetuity. The second part of that is I really liked the team that I was working with—the owners, the executives, they were good people. An adjective that could be used to describe them is visionary. They have a clear concept of where they want to go. I’m on board with that concept, and I think that that was also attractive to me to be able to pivot and not lose everything that I had been doing.

MURIEL WILKINS: Braeden has now been in that current role for a few years, so we started the conversation by looking at how it’s been going so far. How much has reality matched up with his expectations?

BRAEDEN: I think with everything there’s been good and there’s been bad. I have been able to continue to solve problems, and that is certainly part of what gets me out of bed in the morning is I have a problem. I’m going to break that apart. I’m going to just destroy that problem. I’m going to conquer it and I’m going to deliver a solution. I love to say yes when it comes to IT things because I think that there’s always a way to get from where you are to where you want to be.

And I think I’m also excited… and this is something I’ve learned about myself over the last few years—is I’m excited about solving those larger business problems as well, even outside the scope of IT. So when it comes to developing a new line of business or evaluating a business and looking for gaps, is there a cohesive strategy? Is it well communicated? Is it translated into goals, objectives, tactics, KPIs, metrics, policies, processes, procedures, all the way down to the end behaviors that you want to see demonstrated that will help the organization achieve whatever its long-term goals are? That problem solving is also really enjoyable to me.

The downside I think to all of it is that where I think the organization, the owners, the executives in particular are certainly verbally on board with the long-term plans that we collaboratively set out. It has been really hard to get real movement towards those long-term goals. And that’s financial goals, revenue, profitability, but also some of the feel-good goals, the social or the community improvement that we feel like we can affect, cultural.

I’m not exactly sure where I got my expectations for culture from, but it has become more and more evident as time has passed that this organization’s culture, I think there’s a significant gap between the culture that the owners want or feel that they need and what they are able to do in terms of culture change on their own and where the rest of the organization is. I think the best way that I’ve ever heard it put is that this organization is really in its teenage years and there’s a lot of rough edges and there’s a lot of feelings and there’s conflict. I mean, not that conflict is bad in and of itself, but there’s unproductive conflict, there’s unproductive a lot of things, and that in and of itself is a huge obstacle that no one of us can change.

And where I’m at, my position sits outside the chain of command, so to speak. I report to the CEO directly, but my only direct reports are within that IT sphere. And that culture change has to happen not just in the areas I have influence over, but throughout the organization. And so, it’s become an exercise in saying the same things over and over and over in as many different ways as I can, to the point where I’ve had to go back to that ownership team executive team and say, “Are you really on board with this? Are you really committed to what you say you want? If you’re not, it’s okay. I just need to know about that now because frankly, that’s not the kind of organization that I want to be part of.” And it’s tough to get people pinned down on that issue.

MURIEL WILKINS: I can appreciate the teenager example or illustration, given that I live 24/7 with two teenagers right now.

BRAEDEN: I’ve been through it too.

MURIEL WILKINS: That’s right. The gap between what we say we want and what we actually do is quite real during that time. Okay, so now you’re here and we’re talking, and so what is the question or challenge that’s on your mind?

BRAEDEN: Yeah, that’s tough to formulate. Since it’s 2024 and these tools exist, I went to ChatGPT and I said, “I’m having trouble describing a feeling that I’m having. Can you help me find the right word or words?”

MURIEL WILKINS: I love it.

BRAEDEN: And it actually came out with some really helpful things. So I’ve been trying for a really long time to affect change in this organization. Some things are changing. We’ve made some really important decisions to bring in people that will move us towards that culture that will support growth and achievement of our goals. That’s gone all the way up to some changes in the senior management team. And those have been hard conversations and you come home and you’re just mentally exhausted. It’s not like I was out cutting trees down, but I’m just beat down by those conversations. But again, focusing on successes. We have made some of those. And we’ve also been able with some of those new people on board who are infusing maturity and professionalism into the organization, we’ve started to see movement towards identifying not just a set of core values, but core competencies. What are the things that when we go looking for new employees, that we are going to run them through a filter of these core attributes that they have to have?

I don’t want to say that there hasn’t been change, that there haven’t been milestones matter successes, but it just feels like there’s so much more to do. And when I look at the calendar and I look at where we are organizationally in terms of the movement towards our long-term goals, which are big, hairy and audacious, it’s hard to see the movement. And I guess ultimately the question is how do other people navigate a timeline that appears to be multi-year ahead of me and maintain the sense of urgency that I have, maintain the passion that I have, maintain or increase my ability to influence throughout the organization and move us towards where we’ve verbally said we want it to go—knowing that it’s going to be a constant marathon process?

And I guess the other angle I’m looking at it through is as we bring in, I feel like, big hitters, they’re coming in…feels like fresh legs, and they’re coming in with gusto and they’re coming in with ideas and I’m like, I’m tired, I need a break. I want those people in this organization, but I’m beat and I feel like I’m losing a step when it comes to keeping up with their ability to influence and drive change. And I kind of feel like I’m getting passed. If it’s a highway, I’m getting past, there’s cars whizzing by me on the fast lane. There’s certainly a part of me that’s like, well, I could certainly go back out on my own and go back to just being a solopreneur. But I’m really invested in this organization and in our mission and the vision that we laid out and the culture that I think we’re making progress towards. But I’m afraid that I’m going to get left behind, if you will, in terms of leading this organization to where it needs to go.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. And I love that AI helped you. I love it. Okay, so let me make sure that I am listening as well as AI does. So what I’m hearing from you is big, hairy, audacious goals by the organization. There have been some wins, and yet it feels like achieving those long-term goals seems quite some distance away. And that your level of urgency doesn’t seem matched with the owners’ level of urgency. You’re questioning whether their commitment to the goals is real. And in the meantime, you’re starting to feel a little tired from running this race and you’re losing your gusto, losing a bit of your energy and mojo around it. Is that right?

BRAEDEN: Yeah, well said. Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. And so I think the question you’re asking is, do I want to get mojo back for this? And if so, how do I? And what needs to change? Is it them? Is it the goals? Is it me? What’s the deal?

BRAEDEN: That sounds about right, yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: And so, why does this matter for you now?

BRAEDEN: I think that getting it figured out, if that’s even possible, is going to set the direction for me professionally for the next five to 10 years, at least. I feel like my career has progressed in seven- to 10-year segments. Maybe it’s just coincidence. Maybe that’s a pattern. I don’t know. But I’m here in the sixth year of working with this organization. I think I see opportunities, I see possibilities for me. I am going to be successful. I think I’m committed to myself to be successful and not let other people hold me back. I would love to be successful with other people. It’s funny—I’m an introvert. I’m not a people person. I’m often on the sidelines. That’s why being out of the chain of command is…it has pros and cons. But for me, that’s a pro because I do get to sit on the outside and be invited in, and every time I’m invited in, that feels like a recommitment to why I’m there. That helps to keep me going.

But I guess, again, to answer your question, I’d love to be successful with a team. Certainly I can be successful on my own, but… I don’t know if loyalty is the right word, but I’m loyal or I’m invested, I want to see this group succeed. And that’s what’s got me hanging on to the idea that maybe sticking around and seeing this through is what I want to do. My confidence level that we can, it fluctuates. When we reach those milestones, when we get the right person in the right seat and I see them executing at the level that I felt like they could when I interviewed them, that’s certainly a boost for me. And we’ve had some of that. But to maybe dig down a little bit more, some of that I think is just feel-good. It feels good to see a hire validated by some of the early wins that they can bring to the organization.

But what really feels so far away are some of the measurable things in terms of our revenue targets or our profitability targets or our expansion targets, or again, that community improvement, cultural, societal impact that we think we can have through the work that we do. Those are the things that still feel really far away because on a month-to-month basis, the P&L sheet, the balance sheet, they’re not changing a whole lot. I’m in a position where even the results aren’t consistently there and the commitment to, the dedication to, the discipline, culturally, the discipline to keep the drumbeat of checking those metrics and looking at the budget in relation to how we’re doing, the cadence of meetings and the involvement in meetings from people, they drag me down. They bring my confidence level back down because I still feel like I’m often the one person pushing those kinds of activities and seeing them as critical.

Those are the things that kind of bring me back down to, no, you’re here and this is the moment you’re in and you’re not where you need to be yet. And you are still very much trying to influence people who aren’t then showing you their willingness or commitment to take those things on in your stead or to pick the ball up and run with it where you think they need to own that particular thing.

MURIEL WILKINS: One thing that coaching often reveals is that while something feels like it might be off at work or you might feel stuck in a rut, articulating the actual problem in a succinct way is often pretty hard. Because of that, it’s critical that part of a coaching conversation is actually clearly identifying the problem and pinpointing the pain points before you start working through solutions.

In Braeden’s case, there are a number of possible themes intersecting here. One, he’s feeling a bit of an urge for a shakeup or change coming soon. He’s also excited about the ability to take on more responsibility in his role, but feels challenged by the stage of life the organization seems to be in. And it seems like he’s also feeling a bit burnt out. I think it’s important to break some of these issues apart and get more specific with Braeden about what challenge he’d like to tackle before we start moving to actions he can take. Let’s dive back in.

So there’s a couple of things here. Number one is you talked about your success and that you believe you can and you will be successful. And then you talked about others being successful and the business being successful. So I’ll start there with the question of, what’s the difference between your definition of success for you and whoever these others are, or the organization’s definition of success—if any difference?

BRAEDEN: Yeah, I definitely get a sense that my definition of success is probably growth. And I think we have had a lot of people in the organization whose definition of success is probably comfort. I don’t know if that’s the right word, but they’re comfortable where they are. They’ve got a 9-to-5, they’ve got a paycheck. The company’s in good shape. I mean, the company’s not struggling to stay afloat. It’s struggling to grow. And so, it’s like, who do we want to be? Where do we want to go if it’s just hitting this plateau and staying there? I’m not saying that that’s wrong because I think that that probably does line up with what some people in the organization would prefer because growth is hard.

So yeah, I mean there’s definitely a disconnect. And to be completely fair, where I have been able to influence the hiring of people within the organization, I am looking for purpose-driven individuals because I go back to when I was able to take part in some of these strategic planning, that’s what everyone in the room said that we wanted. And until we reconvene or revisit that and have a large group come back together and say, has that changed? Do we need to deviate? I’m going to keep going with what we said we were going to do.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So there’s this potential disconnect between your desire for growth and what you’re seeing, which is more of an appetite for comfort. I also heard you say that you are not sure if the commitment and the willingness to do what it takes to get to that growth is there, right?

BRAEDEN: Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: Based on what?

BRAEDEN: Outwardly behaviors. I think I have tried to do a really good job of teeing up if this is the outcome that you want, this is the behavior that aligns with that outcome. And I get head nodding and I get, “Yep, yep. Right on, 100%. Way to go. Way to point that out.” And then we walk out of the room and the behaviors go right back to what they are currently, the current culture persists. I’ve gone as far as to pull the owner and executive group and say, “Is growth really what you want? Ultimately, this is your company. You get to make this decision. If growth isn’t what you want for your company, we have to say that. We have to say it out loud and we have to communicate it.” That is a strategy. Plateauing is a strategy.

And I think back to my own dad. I mean, he is an incredible leader and he has always been happy to just be his own business, but has never expanded his business, never grew his business, was always happy it paid the bills for the family, and it got him what he needed in terms of income and flexibility in his time to do other volunteer efforts and things like that. So, I get it that that is totally a valid strategy. But when I pull the owner and executive team, I get back, “No, we committed to growth, we committed to growth.” And I go, “Okay, you can tell me that. You can nod your head up and down. You can tell me all the right words and I’ll go out and I’ll do it, but if I don’t see those behaviors from you” —and this is something I have said to them— “I can’t want this more than you.”

And again, I get wins every now and then where we’ll make a decision. The ownership team will make a decision to go bring in a heavy hitter that will move us toward the culture and the system, the way of doing business that’s going to move us in that growth trajectory. But then there’s a lot of days that I walk out and I’m like, ugh, it just wasn’t there and I’ve got to go back. I can’t just hold onto that and not give that feedback.

MURIEL WILKINS: So when you’re not seeing the behavior change that’s aligned with the aggressive growth targets that you said that they have established, is it that they don’t want to change—option number one? Or they don’t know how to change—option number two? Or they’re not changing quickly enough—option number three?

BRAEDEN: Can it be a little bit of all of that? I’m not sure. I guess-

MURIEL WILKINS: Why don’t we say this: which fits the picture best? I don’t even know if I said that right, but you know what I mean? When you had to pick which fits the most, if you had to pick one?

BRAEDEN: I think we have had owners who didn’t know how, or at least I suspected that they didn’t know how. But when we offered them resources or put them with resources, and that could be mentors, that could be other consultants to try to get them what they needed, here’s how you do that, it didn’t change. And I guess if I had to put on my psychologist’s hat, I’d say, well, that must indicate that they didn’t want to. If we gave them what they needed and they said they were going to do it and that it didn’t happen, they must not have wanted to.

The caveat to that—and again, this is where I just don’t know—is I think that they’ve really struggled with the idea of separating their ownership and the entrepreneur side of themselves from the operator side of themselves. They’re constantly getting pulled into the weeds, constantly doing things for people further down the org chart, constantly filling in. And I’m sure that is exhausting, hard to prioritize, hard to get things done, and that probably ultimately makes it hard to change. And so I know that that’s going on. So, it’s a mixed bag.

MURIEL WILKINS: So I mean, look, at the end of the day what’s happening… and we can sit here and try to analyze what’s going on with all of the owners, but you’re the one that’s sitting in front of me. So, at the end of the day, they are not moving at the pace that you’d like them to move or that you believe they should be moving=?

BRAEDEN: I think that’s 100% accurate.

MURIEL WILKINS: What is up with the pace? Why is that pace important to you?

BRAEDEN: So we set specific targets and there’s due dates on those targets. It has to be at this level by this date. And again, big, hairy, audacious. So we always knew going into it’s going to be coin flip. We might get it, we might not. If we don’t get it, we’ve got to get close. Looking at metrics, we are nowhere close. The curve is getting farther and farther away from us every day that passes. I think that’s really what is driving my sense of urgency. And I’ve tried to make it clear if that growth trajectory isn’t realistic anymore or if it’s not desired anymore, if it needs to be adjusted, we have to make that adjustment and communicate it out because it changes everyone’s trajectory. I’m struggling to get an answer other than, “No, that’s what we’re going to do.”

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay, so I’m hearing why it matters to you, right?

BRAEDEN: Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: Why it matters to you, I think…and check me on this: why it matters to you is a goal was set. You work towards the goal?

BRAEDEN: Pretty much.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. And why is that important? Just so I can understand what the underbelly of that is.

BRAEDEN: Maybe that gets back to something more personal in nature where I am driven to be continually improving. I have goals that I’m working towards. That’s professional, that’s personal. I was unhealthy and overweight and I decided I was going to start running and get to the point where I could do a 5K and then a 10K. Those are things that personally I’ve done. I take that and I equate that professionally to setting a goal and doing what it takes to get to it and calling yourself or your team or your peers out when you’re not on target. And that’s why I say if someone would just give me the feedback, “Ah, actually that’s not what we want to do. We’ve changed our mind.” Okay. Thank you.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay, but that’s not the scenario you’re facing.

BRAEDEN: It’s not. It’s not, yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: Scenario you’re facing is people are saying, “No, I want to lose weight too,” but yet they’re not going to the gym and they’re eating chips and chocolate chip cookies at midnight every night. So, the question becomes what role do you want to play in helping meet their goals? And notice, I said, “in helping them meet their goals,” because guess what? You’re not in either scenario.

BRAEDEN: I’m not them.

MURIEL WILKINS: You’re not them, which means you don’t own the goal.

BRAEDEN: Yeah, you’re right.

MURIEL WILKINS: My question to you is, if you don’t own the goal… I mean you own some goals, you own a part of it, but you don’t own the whole organizational goals. That’s the owners, right? That’s why they’re called the owners. You know what it means to own a company because you were your own boss for a while. As you said, you ran the ship. Now you moved into this. And so, what is your role in this organization? Is it running the ship? Which it could be. I’m just trying to understand what it is.

BRAEDEN: It’s definitely not right now. I mean, I’m outside the chain of command and I think for a reason. I think right now it is facilitating conversations about planning. It is being an advisor in the planning process, and it is capturing the commitments that are made during that planning process and then creating the feedback system whereby people are being reminded of the commitments that were made. Again, it’s so funny because then there’s the IT hat too, but I’m pretty satisfied from the IT standpoint. So, I think the focus on the strategy piece is where my problems are.

MURIEL WILKINS: All the things that you just named, you’re the facilitator of the conversation, you’re the truth-teller, you mirror back, you report back, you say, “Hey, here’s where we are.” Okay?

BRAEDEN: Mm-hmm.

MURIEL WILKINS: To what extent are you doing all those things?

BRAEDEN: To an extent that I make myself uncomfortable with how often I am communicating those things. I should check myself. This is a moment where I can check myself. So, thank you for that question. I think that I do a balanced job of communicating the wins, the positive things, the feel good things and the challenges. There are some days, they’re few and far between, but there are some days where I can really instill kind of like a rah-rah spirit around the leadership table. But more often than not, it is, “Hey, we said we were going to do X or achieve Y by Z date. We’re off track, folks. What’s it going to take to get back on track?” That’s where I think I have trouble. That’s where my role stops and I turn and I look at our ownership and I go, “What are you going to do about it?” And then plans are made, assignments are made.

And I count that as a win because when I walked into the doors of this organization, those things weren’t being done. The questions weren’t being asked, the commitments weren’t being tracked, the plans weren’t being adjusted when we were off track, or at the time they were off track when I wasn’t part of it. But again, it’s like we can just keep kicking the can. We can keep moving the goalposts, whatever metaphor, and at some point somebody’s got to be accountable for that.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yep. I’m going to go back to something you said, which is you want to be successful and you will be successful. So, it sounds to me as though, given the seat that you’re in and the role that you hold which is—again, just going back to what you said—facilitating the conversation, holding the mirror up, reminding what the goals were, pointing out where the wins are and where we’re not on target. It sounds to me like you were checking off the boxes on those. So, you are being successful in terms of that particular role. I think the question is, are you in a role that would enable you and give you the latitude to be able to change the behavior of the organization and the culture, and quite frankly, the ownership team?

BRAEDEN: Right. No, I don’t think that I am, and I think that I’ve recognized that. As we have gone out and brought in heavy hitters, there was a time where I questioned whether I wanted, needed to step into an operational role where I would have not just influence but authority to go with it. But I chose not to because I felt like the right thing to do was to go find someone who had demonstrated experience taking an organization like ours from its teenage years into the next phase. I’m genuinely excited about that hire. I am excited about the prospects of having someone with that experience. I’m excited to see where that goes. But I did intentionally allow that opportunity to pass by me because I didn’t feel like I was the right person for that role. I don’t know, maybe that wasn’t fair to me. Maybe I was wrong to do that. I’m not sure.

And going back to something I said earlier, this is another moment though that gives me a little bit of apprehension because now we’re bringing in someone who frankly outpaces me in every aspect, operationally, probably an incredible strategic thinker, may not need someone with my skill set. That is causing me some anxiety. Where do I fit in with that person on board? This person’s coming in hopefully to take a lot of responsibility on the day-to-day operations away from the CEO, so that that person can then focus on growing the business. But just to try to put a bow on it, how am I going to interface with that new person, that excellent leader in an operational role? I’m hoping that it can become a good partnership, but again, they’re coming in with potentially fresh legs, different ideas. And that’s where I go, man, this is possibly also where I get left behind in terms of my influence, which lays outside the chain of command.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay, so here’s the thing though. Hopefully the individual who’s coming in is going to fulfill the very thing that you want, or what you’ve been saying you want, which is to move the organization closer to these goals. Okay?

BRAEDEN: Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: You had an opportunity to potentially play that role. For different reasons you decided not to. And yet that role is the scope of what it seems like you want to be doing rather than being in solely an advisory capacity. Let me just pause there because there’s a rub there for me. So, let’s not focus so much on the person who’s come in. I want to focus on you. There’s a rub there. What is the role that you want to have in the organization?

BRAEDEN: My mind goes there as well, and part of me says, You know what—let’s just say if IT was what really drove me in younger years, previous years—this could be a great opportunity for me to actually hand off a lot of this coaching, counseling, advising, to your point, the person, the people that will take us to the goals that we set out. And I love the idea of seeing this organization hit its goals. And as much as there’s kind of that, oh, what’s the right word? I don’t know, maybe it’s a pride thing. Maybe it’s a giving up control thing. I get apprehensive about what that looks like, but can I step back or focus in more of the IT space? Sure. That’s a possibility.

MURIEL WILKINS: Is it what you want?

BRAEDEN: Is it what I want? Yeah, I mean, that’s a great question. I mean, I’ve asked myself that. I’ve tried to talk myself through that. I’ve tried to talk to other people about that. I’ve gone as far as to talk to a recruiter about that and say, “Look at my resume. Listen to what I’m doing right now. What is my career trajectory? What do people in this position wind up doing?” And there’s probably a trajectory where I become a consultant to other organizations. If I can get to the point where I’ve made myself redundant by bringing in the operational and strategic leadership that this organization needs to go and achieve its goals, maybe I go find some other organization to do that for now that I know the process that I walked this organization through, to a certain extent. That’s a great question: what do I want to do? Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: At this point in the coaching conversation, we started to see some of the cycle that Braeden found himself in at work: the frustration around setting goals, hearing that there’s buy-in, and then things just stalling out. And while he’s frustrated that the organization’s executives are not taking action towards the goals, he hasn’t questioned whether he’s in a position to actually influence them in the way he’d like to. This led to me asking him what he really wants out of his role. Thinking about that question could potentially help him get clarity about his situation and start thinking about how he might move forward in a different way to get different results. It’s time to reflect back a bit of what I’ve been hearing from him from this new perspective.

Here’s where I’m seeing the struggle. And again, just from my purview. On the one hand, it sounds like you’re great and you do enjoy being able to advise, consult, influence. But what breaks down for you is when you’re doing the advise, influence, consult, and yet the people you’re doing that for are not moving towards the goals that you are advising them on. So, it’s almost like you’re telling them, “Yes, I’m here to tell you to do this. I’m going to advise you on it,” but then you get frustrated when they’re actually not moving towards it.

BRAEDEN: Yeah, that’s definitely a big thing for me.

MURIEL WILKINS: But when we are…and believe me, I know, I mean this is what I live through every single day. When we are in a capacity of advising, that’s what it is. It’s advice. It’s not owning it. You don’t own the results of the performance. The buck doesn’t stop with you. And so, the question is really you’ve experienced both. You’ve experienced being in a role where you’re more of an advisor. You’ve experienced having your own business where the buck did stop with you for your business. And now you’re kind of in this hybrid.

And I think what’s happening is you’re at a place right now where it’s kind of like, Hmm, which one do I want to lean into more? Because yes, I’m in this advisory capacity, and yet what frustrates me is that I don’t own the goals, that I don’t own what it takes to actually get to those goals. You could, but you’d need to be in a different role, either at this company or someplace else. But you’ve got to decide which one it is. And what you can’t do is say, “I want to be able to do X, but from my seat in Y.” Doesn’t work that way. Back to your example of losing weight. I want to be able to go run a marathon, but I want to do it while sitting in my recliner seat in front of the TV eating bonbons. It doesn’t work. Which one is it?

BRAEDEN: Yeah. That’s a great question and will certainly cause me to do more soul-searching and introspection and try to figure that out for sure. I mean, I have an inkling of where I want to go. General—I have a general inkling of what I want. Going back to, I don’t think I could be satisfied in a transactional IT only role in the future because I’ve had a taste of senior leadership and I like, to steal the line, being in “the room where it happens.” I do get excited by that prospect.

So really it’s like do you pick the lane of being the doer and try to find probably—I don’t want to undersell it—but some kind of an operational lead kind of a role? Or would I prefer to be in that advising role? And to your great point, as much as I feel a sense of ownership over the attainment of results, it’s really not fair to myself to be trying to make that leap and redefining what success looks like. Success for me really can’t be the organization achieving the results that it has expressed the desire to achieve, but for me to do my best in providing the advice, the guidance, the facilitation, the feedback to the people that own that goal.

MURIEL WILKINS: That’s right.

BRAEDEN: And this is great because you’re connecting dots for me. In the past few years, I think this is mainly since I took on kind of this advisor officially—when I officially got that set of duties given to me, and I will say in a very ambiguous way that’s led us to the point that we’re at—my compensation also became partially tied to the achievement of those goals. And from the get-go, I felt like something was misaligned there. I have gone back to my supervisor and said, “When we hit our goals, I love getting these bonuses, but I don’t directly control whether we achieve them or not. And so when we don’t, it kind of stinks because I’m like, I couldn’t have done anything differently.”

And he’s heard that feedback and his response has always been, “Our motivations are the same.” And I think that what I’m getting from this is no, they’re really not. I have this intuitive feeling that they’re not, behaviorally they’re not. They’re not, period. And that is probably the next conversation that needs to happen because that takes it all the way from how I’m compensated for what I do and the outcomes that I produce, all the way back through what is my role. Let’s really get clear about what my role is here, where my influence begins and ends, and where any authority that I have begins and ends. And let’s come up with clarification on what I do, how I do it, and how I’m compensated for it. Those things should align better. So that’s for sure an actionable thing that I can take away from this.

MURIEL WILKINS: And look, I think that role clarification, knowing where you stand in the puzzle is critical because you can’t be the middle piece of the puzzle and the corner at the same time. And I don’t know about you, but when I do puzzles, I’m always looking for the four corners first.

BRAEDEN: I hear you.

MURIEL WILKINS: I don’t know why. What I’m suggesting is clarifying for yourself first, I actually think, before you go talk to others because you’ve mentioned you’ve had this intuitive feel, you’re sensing something’s not quite aligned. So, I think there’s a big part of this around just being honest with yourself around what it is that you want. How do you want to affect change? Not whether you do or don’t because it’s clear that you do want to affect change, but how do you want to do it? Do you have the capacity and the skills to be able to be in that type of position to affect change the way that you want to? And is it possible where you are now? And if it’s not, then you kind of have your answer.

So, a big piece of this is you need clarity to then be able to align yourself, get into a posture that enables you to meet the goals. In the same way that you want that for that team—where you’re like, I need them to do X, Y, Z so that they can meet those goals, but I’m not seeing that behavior—it’s the exact same thing for you, except it’s more around the position and the seat that you’re in that allows for the behaviors that meet the goals that you want. And right now, you’re in a great position, you have great behaviors. I’m not quite sure whether they’re aligned with the type of change that you want to have an impact on.

BRAEDEN: That makes sense, yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So there’s a lot there. For the sake of clarity of this conversation, I’d love to hear what your biggest takeaway is and how you feel at the end of this conversation versus when we first started.

BRAEDEN: I think here’s something else that I intuitively feel. I recently went through some personal counseling and one thing that really came out of it was a personal mission statement, a statement of purpose, a statement of values. And coming out the gate, I was on fire. I was like, “Yeah, I’m going to start analyzing all these aspects of my life.” And again, trying to find that alignment between the things that I do and what’s important to me and where I want to go.

But I think that I could sense that there was kind of this disconnect professionally. And I think the key takeaway for me is to go back and reevaluate where I’m at professionally now, where I want to be professionally in the greater context of those personal statements of purpose and the things that are important to me. Because the word that keeps bubbling up as I am hearing your feedback and thinking about what you’re saying is, I reject any ceilings that should be above me. I’m serious about that. And this feels like a ceiling to a certain extent, and I need to crack through that, through realigning my professional goals with who I want to be and where I want to go. So, I think that’s my key takeaway, that intellectual honesty with oneself. That’s very important. And I can feel it when I’m not doing that. And I think this is a moment where I’m going, yeah, I wasn’t really being intellectually honest with myself in how I was looking at this. I was ignoring some key issues. So, I think that’s the biggest change from where this conversation started to now.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. Well, if what this enabled you to do is just be more honest with yourself, kudos to you, because that’s not easily done.

BRAEDEN: Yeah, no, you’re right. That’s hard. It’s easy to push your intuition back into the backseat and go-

MURIEL WILKINS: So easy.

BRAEDEN: … “No, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is what’s really going on.” But ultimately, it comes back out. It comes back out.

MURIEL WILKINS: It always does. It always does. All right. Well, thank you, Braeden.

BRAEDEN: Thank you. I appreciate it.

MURIEL WILKINS: Braeden came into the coaching conversation trying to figure out how to get senior leadership to change, but that framing kept him stuck. It wasn’t until he turned the lens on himself and started kicking the tire on whether he was making the moves that would get him towards the goals he wanted that he started seeing a way through the situation he’s in. Many times the way forward is a layer or more below what we think the issue is. It’s important to reframe the questions we ask ourselves in order to get unblocked.

That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders and for this season. We’ll be taking a break over the winter and coming back in the spring with some new episodes. If you’re dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to have you on the show next season. Apply now at CoachingRealLeaders.com. And if you want to connect with me live, you can join me at CoachingRealLeadersCommunity.com where I host live discussions about leadership and coaching. You can also follow me on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins and Instagram at @CoachMurielWilkins.

Before you go, I have a really important ask of you. If you love the coaching conversations on Coaching Real Leaders, it would mean the world to me if you could head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to subscribe to the show and leave a five-star review. And of course, if you think others would learn from these episodes, please share it with them. Thank you to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nick Crnko; music composer, Brian Campbell; my assistant Emily Sopha; and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. From HBR Podcast Network, I’m Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.